Olga & Carolyn
===
[00:00:00] Hi everyone. It's Olga Zarr from SEO Sly. This is SEO podcast by SEO Sly. I am your host. And today I have a very special guest. This is Carolyn Holzman. Carolyn, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Doing great. I'm much warmer than you. Yes, definitely you are. And for me, this was like, especially a huge shock because I, like last week, I got back from Barbados.
[00:00:28] And it is snowing here. So it was like a huge shock. And I ended up like with a cold and then it turned out it was COVID. But yeah. But I'm fine. And where are you based? I'm in Austin, Texas. Oh, yeah. So this is a warm place. Yeah. Even in the winter. It's really nice. It's it's difficult in the summer because of the heat.
[00:00:55] Right. So I like to get out, um, of Texas during the summer, but during the winter, it's like, it's gorgeous sun shining and blue skies and. Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. So, uh, Carolyn, I have been following you for some time. I first learned about you from SEO Fight Club. They recommended you and then I. Went and checked your, um, YouTube channel, your podcast, uh, your YouTube channel is called, uh, crawl, uh, or No Crawl, if I remember correctly.
[00:01:30] And, uh, the podcast is Confessions of an SEO. You have a little bit, I think, different approach to SEO then most SEOs out there. You really do a lot of tests and I just, uh. In this episode, I wanted to dive deep into your SEO story, what you do, how you started doing SEO. So can you like in a couple of sentences, introduce yourself to the guests in case they don't know you, and then we will kind of go into more detail.
[00:02:03] Sure, sure. Um, well, my introduction into SEO was through my business. I was a local business owner here in Austin, brick and mortar. And I provided. Um, I mean, I call it, it was production, but, um, audio CDs, CD ROM, DVD, um, Blu ray, things like that, where people had created products, um, that they wanted to publish on these formats.
[00:02:36] And then I would, they would give me the masters and make, you know, 5, 000, 10, 000, 25, 000. Units of whatever it was. So, um, I, I noticed that, um, uh, people were shifting. Like when I started that business, everyone was using the yellow pages. So it's that old story of, you know, where did you find me? Oh, the yellow pages.
[00:03:06] So I wanted to be in the yellow pages. And then there was a shift. And so right about the time I was starting to hit my stride, that's when the shift happened. And so I suddenly learned about how, um, local businesses could be found. In different ways, and so that's how I wanted to be found. So I basically became my first client.
[00:03:33] Um, I had gone to a conference, an information conference. We're talking about how you could make a living by selling, um, at the time they were calling them eBooks. They were really. Like PDFs and, um, do what you love, you know, tell people what you do and then, um, sell that. And then I thought that's great, but that's not for me.
[00:03:57] Um, and, uh, I ended up, um, they had an SEO speaker there who was, um, the SEO for the guy who ran the conference. And, um, he was very humble. Um, he had a. Uh, pub in London that he had used, uh, learned SEO and then use that to, uh, promote the pub did so well that he caught this guy's eye. And so he was offering to teach people how to do SEO for, uh, over Skype for a year.
[00:04:33] And. So, um, I felt like, you know, like Dorothy, like, Oh, I don't think there's anything in your black bag for me. My keyword is very difficult. And, uh, so I told him what it was, it's CD. And when was it? What year? What year? 2009. And so, uh, he said, you know, if we can use your, uh, current website, we're going to convert it over to WordPress.
[00:05:00] Yay. Um, and then, uh, start from there. And ultimately, um, within 18 months, um, I was ranking number one nationally for not number one, page one nationally, um, for the term for CD duplication and business. Went through the roof and the, you know, change is a two edged sword. Right. So I had thought that that would, once I did that, that, you know, yay me.
[00:05:33] Right. That that would be the end of it. But what I uncovered was I actually loved the monotony and the details. of doing that, creating that type of event. And I wanted to do it, not just for myself, but for others. At the same time all this was happening, there was a little bit of a dip in the economy, and a lot of businesses were struggling.
[00:06:00] And in my office complex, there were several people that were like, what are you doing? They saw more and more people coming and they saw more shipments coming in the back and, and they were like, what are you doing? How, every time I see you, you're busy. You've got people in coming in and out all day. And so I kind of did that thing in the movies of like, do you really want to know?
[00:06:29] And so, um, It actually started that way that, um, my, my first client that wasn't me was, um, the business next door and they, um, they did a very, uh, specific thing. They were doing, um, secure data erasure, and that was not necessarily a local, uh, uh, call to action. So they, they were pretty much trying to compete worldwide.
[00:07:01] And so, um. Within, uh, they, they were stuck, you know, they had hit like, um, a certain revenue level and they knew they were doing all the things they should do. They had a website, they had, uh, they went to trade shows, they had a newsletter, they were constantly reaching out to people, but, um, they hit a lot, uh, a ceiling, so, um, they kind of said, can you help us?
[00:07:33] And I was like, yes, I know I can't , you know, it wasn't just the keyword. Right? It was, it was the same behavior, the same activity that uh, if I did it for them, I, if I did it for myself, I could do it. Yeah. So within, um, within the first year, we doubled their revenue. Oh, nice. Yeah, so it was like 1.7 and I think it went up to like.
[00:07:59] Three million. And so, uh, and then it went on up from there and the, the fun ending to that story is that, um, the competitor who I was using as sort of like, I knew they had obviously a department of, of marketing and health, they were doing things, so I was just watching what they were doing. And then, uh, trying it out and it worked.
[00:08:24] And so everywhere they went, they found my client close behind or above them for that matter. So, um, so they ended up buying them out. Yeah. So it was an SEO campaign so successful that the competitor bought them out. Nice, nice. But, you know, by then it was, I was totally hooked and I was like, how can I do more of this?
[00:08:52] And less of that, um, you know, for the CD duplication. And so I straddled both worlds for a while. And then I was finally like, I, I got to get out, I've got to do this. This is what I love. Um, this is what makes a difference for not just myself and my family, but also for other people's. And that was the thing that brought me to SEO was that, um, that guy who had the pub in London, he said, you know, I do this so that I can help families send their kids to camp.
[00:09:22] And I do this so that families can go on vacation. I do this so that these people can, you know, do, do the things they want to do in life. And I thought, you know, that's, that's a pretty compelling reason to do this. It's fun anyway, right? But if, if you can do it and see that the human on the other side, that's really what makes me excited.
[00:09:45] Yeah, totally, totally like that, that you see that you have a positive impact on others. Yeah, it's totally, totally kind of changes how you approach, right? Your, your, your work, if, if you see it this way. Okay. So you around like how many years after, like after that you, you kind of, uh, went solo or went on your own with that.
[00:10:09] Or did you like, did you have a job at some point, or are you just No, I was always, um, you know, I had the CD business. And as you can see, you know, with, with streaming and all that kind of stuff, that, that pretty much was hitting a, a, um Like you could even see like search volume, like starting to dip down on that.
[00:10:30] So, um, I was like, okay, I don't want, not only do I not want to do this anymore, the industry is changing to where it doesn't need to do it anymore. So, um, that was around 2017 or so, um, when I finally just sort of was like, you know, yes, it's, it's done for me. Um, but it was really, um, once. I want to say with like 2010 that I actually started my first agency.
[00:11:04] Okay. Okay. So, so no SEO jobs, like you transitioned from this business to that business. Yeah. Nice. Okay. So, um, but that's the thing is that, you know, um, I find that even if I, because I have done that, um, where I work with agencies, you know, contract with them and, and do their things. But, um, the thing is, is that when you, ah, when you have the choice between following an SOP and you see that things have changed.
[00:11:38] I cannot follow an SOP knowing that it doesn't work anymore. Yeah, totally, totally. And so, um, it's, it's challenging to find places that sort of let you, I, I see SEO as very creative. Mm hmm. Um, I don't see it as, um, there, there are some things, some aspects of it, you know, that are, are monotonous, but the, the discovery and like, like seeing behind the scenes is so much more fun.
[00:12:06] Yeah, totally. Yeah. Totally. And, you know, and so, and I understand through testing, you know, like a lot of times it takes. Um, people to see something like you can tell them, but it doesn't mean anything to them. And I don't think that stakeholders that, you know, are, are the, the ones, I guess, that write your checks.
[00:12:28] So at that point it becomes, uh, well, how many do you need to see? How, how many times can I show you how this works before you will agree that we can dispense with that previous SOP and move into this? And, um, so usually the magic number's around 10. And, uh, and then you just got to hit, hit with the right people who, who trust you to the point that they don't have to see it to know that you do.
[00:13:01] Okay, so you, you started agency around, uh, 2010 and, uh, do you still have this agency or how is it, how does it look, uh, now for you? Um, well it, it, uh, morphed into, now, um, primarily what I do is not so much, um, the The month by month client work, but I like working on problems. So one of the things I, the way I call it is like, it's forensic SEO, which is, um, it's a combination, you know, technical stuff and, and then how things are, you know, the page compared to the algorithm, but, um, it's basically answering questions like.
[00:13:54] It's not, how long does it take me to get to page one, but it's like, why aren't you there already? What are, what are the things that are keeping your pages, your content, things like that, away from, uh, from where you want them to be? Mm hmm. Um, you know, sometimes people call and say like, I have this competitor, they're ahead of me in maps.
[00:14:19] Um, why can you, you know, and I hire you to tell me why. So it's like, sure. So, you know, the, the funny thing is, is it's usually never, if everybody always wants it to be the sexy thing, right? The, this magic thing that has kept you out, you know, if you could write a movie about it, but in actuality, it's. Very basic things, you know, and so I go like, I'm going to climb a mountain, I get all my gear, get all my stuff together and start to look at the map and I realize, oh, gosh, um, they have more anchor text than you for this term.
[00:14:58] So simple. Pretty simple, you know, and, and. You know, and then usually once people find out, oh, anchor text, so I'll get like a thousand backlinks with that anchor text. And then you're like, no, be careful, don't do that, you know, so it's, it's balancing that information to implementation part of it, you know, because when you say, when you haven't, um, when you haven't, let's say, this is probably what it is, um, Everybody always thinks more is better.
[00:15:31] Mm hmm. Especially SEOs, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just a little bit more. I mean, it's like exponentially more is better. Yeah, a million times more. Yeah. And sometimes they go and they do that, and then they go, Oh, it wasn't what you thought, Caroline. And I'm like, what did you do? And then I find out, like, you know, did you do a GSA blast?
[00:15:50] I did not tell you to do a GSA blast. Um, so, you know, it's, it's that kind of stuff. It's tempering. Being able to, to, um, uh, sort of diagnose it for what it potentially could be and then, um, taking steps to show that. You know, sort of like proof of concept on that. And so, but it's, it's, it's a fascinating world, right?
[00:16:17] Yeah. Works on very subtle things sometimes. But we, I think in the SEO community, I don't think that we approach it in a subtle way. I think we Mm hmm. We, we go crazy sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very true. And what about Google Search Console? I know you do a lot of like, um, tests, observations regarding JavaScript rendering, for example, like Google, Google rendering, like, can you share some of your insights, forensic kind of, um, knowledge regarding GSC?
[00:16:57] Um, yeah, so, um, Because the stuff you are talking about is, is really not that everyone, every SEO is talking about. And I think it will be very interesting to people to hear what you, what you do, what things you find out. Well, yeah, I sort of tend to spend my time in like the, um, The basic, simple, um, principles.
[00:17:24] And, um, I started in SEO testing in 2015 to give you time frame. And at that time, you know, Google was very different. Um, you could publish a test and see a result in less than five minutes. I mean, you publish. It was crawled, it was rendered, it was indexed, and it was served. Whoosh! All at one time. And, you know, it happened so fast, I don't think that we as an industry have a language.
[00:17:58] We did not have a language around it. We couldn't, uh, because it, it wasn't a problem, right? It happened so fast, why spend time figuring it out? You don't make money very often figuring things out that are not problems. And so, um, So in testing, um, as we moved on, uh, testing changed, we could run single variable tests.
[00:18:22] There are people that say you never could, right? Google is too complex and the keywords that you're using are not competitive. So whatever you learn from that, you can't apply. And to me, it's like. When I hear that, it tells me that somebody thinks that there are two algorithms. There's one for the hard words, and there's one for the easy ones.
[00:18:46] It's like saying, Is there? No! Well, is there other kinds of gravity? No! The heavy things fall faster, the lighter things fall slower, but it's still subject to gravity. So, same thing with, with um, you know, with testing. So, um, When I started the SEO testing, like I said, Google was different as it changed, you know, we had to figure out why.
[00:19:17] And so before we were basically working with orphan pages, nothing connected to anything. And then suddenly we found out that if we added a sitemap, our pages got indexed. and, and this changed. When, when did it change? Uh, I wanna say, uh, that would've been around 2019 mm-Hmm. 20 2019 for sure. Into 2020. And, um, one of the things that happened was that pretty soon, um, we couldn't really get anything indexed.
[00:20:02] Mm-Hmm. . And, um, and so. At the time I was involved in a project that, uh, there was some aspect of JavaScript involved. And, you know, I know for myself as an SEO, like I heard about JavaScript, but I didn't really understand the importance of rendering for JavaScript. And that if you have, uh, content that's optimized and, and JavaScript is turned off, then there's no picture that Google can make of that page.
[00:20:40] It, it just looks blank. So, um, around this time started to see that, um, people were reporting that there are sites that had, and we're talking about enterprise sites that had been rock solid on page one or dropping like stones. And people were blaming the SEO teams and you guys stink and you're horrible and firing them.
[00:21:09] But when we started testing, we found out that JavaScript was turned off. And with all of these heavy JavaScript frameworks, Google had stopped rendering them. So they appeared. They were very heavy in JavaScript, so they appeared like blank pages. Well, we know if you don't give Google words, um, they can't rank it.
[00:21:36] So, um, so in that particular year, that would've been 2021. Mm-Hmm. , uh, 20 into 21. Um, we were finding out that JavaScript had been turned off for about. At least a quarter of the year, if not more so, um, that led me into, um, that indexation testing and testing for simple and JavaScript and doing it. I thought I was going to start and just do it like once a week.
[00:22:13] And what I found was, is, um, it wasn't enough. It wasn't, um, informative enough. So I started testing every day and I started that in August 2021 and started with these sites and began to get a feel for, um, the daily testing aspect of it. When the first time someone suggested, why don't you test every day?
[00:22:45] And Ted, uh, Cubitis is one of them. And I was like, you know, well, what can we learn, you know? And it's like, well, we, we can learn what we see. And I thought, okay, that's a reason to do it. So, um, by being able to, you know, know when things were on or when they were off, because I think SEOs take way too much responsibility for, um, Results in SERPs.
[00:23:14] Responsibility for things that they have no control over. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And I that's also led me to, you know, starting the podcast because I was like, guys, you know, we have to be able to be better ourselves if we can identify what's When Google's broken, how do our clients know? Yeah. All they know is I hired you as the SEO and um, none of this is getting indexed.
[00:23:46] It's your fault. Totally. So I Yeah. Isn't it? So I thought, well, if, um, if there was a third party, the disinterested third party, like, and, and that's how I saw myself and my research, which was if, if I can document when Google is on or off. Then you as an SEO, because a lot of times business owners only think about SEO or think they should learn SEO when they're trying to buy SEO.
[00:24:17] And there's been a lot of shady, um, operators in our business and most business owners have encountered something. Um, they feel gypped. Right. So, um, I thought this way, it's like, I, I don't have a horse in this race. You know, hire them, fire them. do whatever you do. It doesn't impact me, but I can tell you, indexing has been off for the last three weeks.
[00:24:48] And how did you exactly check that? How, how did you document that? What tools were you using? Like, was it like, were you, for example, using the URL inspection or is this tool any, any use in that case? Can you give more details? Yeah. You know, it's limited because of, um, because of the way the system is. So I'm, I'm very much a manual person.
[00:25:16] Um, so the, the testing principles are always you create a keyword that Google hasn't seen before, that they don't have any documents and, and nothing close enough to where they can suggest. So you find something that, that they've never seen. And you put it on your page and, and usually I do two of them.
[00:25:41] One is like just write in the HTML and the other one is wrapped in a JavaScript so that it's broken apart. So the letters of the words are broken apart. So the only time and the instruction for the script is when this is rendered, put these together. So the first time Google will see that word that it's never seen before.
[00:26:06] Um, is once it goes through the second pass through the rendering. So that's why there's two on every test page. So then I, I keep track, I use spreadsheets and keep track of what date, what the URL was and how to search for the two keywords. So when I search for the simple keyword, I look for that, uh, first fake keyword.
[00:26:33] Or I should say, uh, unique keyword and then JavaScript, same thing. I look for the second keyword, um, to see if it's gone through the second pass. And then I document that on a, um, on a chart. I keep, uh, I've been, uh, got a spreadsheet that has tabs that go back to August 2021. So every week it's a new tab on there.
[00:27:00] And, uh, so it's over, it's almost, um. Well, it's over two years. Um, last August was the second year where I started year three. And, um, so I keep track of that and I do that on a daily basis. Previously, I did that all free and public because I thought it was important to, to sort of demonstrate the fact that sometimes things work and sometimes they don't.
[00:27:28] And, um, so I recently, um, started to put that on Substack. So now it's a paid resource, but the cool thing about it. Is that, um, back in, it was just last month. Hold on. October, um, an SEO, uh, reached out and said that their client, um, their, their former client, um, was disputing charges when they created a new site for them and they launched it in February and they wanted to know if I had any data about February.
[00:28:05] Uh, this year. I was like, do I? Absolutely. Can I do a share screen and I'll show you. And so, um, during that time that the site was launched, Google had stopped, um, updating their, um, like, like things could show as index and search console, but they were not served in the search results. But most people don't know that two, those two things can be true at the same time.
[00:28:39] So, um, so the, the client was just looking for, uh, their new website. They had an old one, they launched a new one. And if Google, um, Google had crawled the new site, um, they weren't sure about that cause they weren't checking server logs, but looking at the data over the time, it was like Google stopped indexing and stopped, uh, serving.
[00:29:04] And then they rolled out an update. And so within that timeframe that the client said, you didn't do anything for me because I couldn't find my site in search, they could find the old one. They just couldn't find the new one. Um, and so there, it was like contemporaneously documented that. If you were launching your site during that time, you would have a hard time getting new, that new content, um, served, uh, into the search results.
[00:29:39] So they were able to take that information, that data, to provide to their attorney. And again, you know, as a third party, not because that company did it and said, see, we did work for you. It was like, we went outside and we found. Data that, and of course, all of it was documented also through the YouTube channel.
[00:30:01] Like I was reporting daily on these things. So, um, so that felt pretty good, you know, being able to, it's not, it's, you know, like when you're in your room, uh, most, uh, SEOs, you know, we work by ourselves, you know, so it was actually really fun to have something that could be so helpful. Um, in a situation where at the time, it never occurred to me, this might be a, a resource in that case.
[00:30:32] So, um, But how many websites, like, do you have in this test portfolio? Like, how many websites, pages you test per day, per week? Like, Well, I, I have some that, um, you know, they were test sites and then they stopped. Because I also want to see what happens when you stop publishing. You know, and, um, and so you kind of look and you see what, what, what, what are the similar characteristics?
[00:31:01] Um, and so, uh, I probably have 12 at various times, 12 different testing sites for this. Um, earlier this year I was seeing that there was a difference between You know, in search console, it would say desktop primary and then smartphone primary. Um, I was seeing different indexation rates. It was much easier to get the smartphone, um, in search console sites where the content would go through the whole system.
[00:31:35] Um, and the desktop was having a little bit of trouble. And so, um, then, you know, it's kind of like when you're staring at something, you start to see the subtle changes. I think most people don't see it because, you know, most of the time we're always worried about our site, our client site, got to get this done, you know, um, but when you can kind of stand on the shore and just look at the waves.
[00:32:05] You start to notice different things. And so, um, so seeing that created an awareness that there's a certain connection with search console that, um, if you, there are subtle signs in there, like even the, this, this last couple of weeks is, um, they are. Working on something if there are people who are trying to launch new sites right now trouble Okay, good to know but Isn't Google now like again indexing or is indexing without Javascript at this moment?
[00:32:52] Or is there something? Else happening. Well, I, I think what it is is, um, I think when we look back, we're going to see this period in time when they moved to mobile first indexing as far more, um, worthy of discussion than it currently is right now. Um, and I, I wrote about it. Um, I have a couple of pages on the sub stack.
[00:33:20] Um, Can you share a little bit more about why this is worthy of more discussion? Well, I, I think, um, There are a lot of things in motion right now, things that we have, like, for instance, they've removed the designations of the sites and they said they were, I'm not, I'm not saying like, oh, I discovered this, but it's kind of like when you start to line them all up, you sort of see certain things.
[00:33:50] And go like, um, what does it look like if all our content is only rendered by mobile bots? Because, you know, um, some, uh, you know, the, the need for speed, right? Everybody has been giving really short shrift to their, the mobile version of their site. They want to slim it down, make it go faster. They might be removing things that they leave on the desktop version of the site.
[00:34:24] Um, I did a test, but I guess now it's about two years ago. Um, mobile first indexing test before. I mean, it's been taking them seven years to move from where we were to now. So it's obviously, it was a much more, um, involved process. And like last December, which was one of the deadlines, they said, we'll have this done by December, kind of like, so they said, well, we're just going to take the due date off, you know, it's kind of like, you're all bugging us too much, you're making us nervous.
[00:35:08] So, um, so at that point in terms of, um, the, the, the things that we think we know about, um, mobile first indexing, um, I had a website where I had. Desktop files for it. And I had a separate set of mobile files for it. So the desktop site was an old version, but I'm trying to get, uh, or at the time tried to get my client to update me.
[00:35:35] Wouldn't. And then when I saw this opportunity, I was like, thank God he didn't, you know? So I had a perfect scenario. So what I ended up doing was, um, tracking. The desktop version of the site in search, and I just hit the on the mobile version with a ton of optimization. Like I, I just. I guess, and most people understand it if I said that I keyword stuffed.
[00:36:06] But I did it in an artful way, okay? It wasn't just the same keyword over and over. It was, but it was a full representation. Like, if you look at keywords, keyword variants, entities. LSI. LSI. And I know people go like, she said LSI. Um, but you know, like when you create a 3D, uh, concept of your topic using all of that.
[00:36:35] And then, um, I watched for some of the, the keywords I was tracking and this thing went up like, um, 22 spots, the desktop version of the site that had no changes to it. All the changes were made on the mobile files.
[00:36:57] And Google says, they say in their thing, we're going to use your mobile version to score and rank. So, um, at that point I was like going like, if anybody is, you know, slimming down your mobile version of your site. Think again, you know, and, um, so, and that was super fun, uh, to try that one out. Um, so that's what, um, that's why I think that this is going to be bigger.
[00:37:26] Like a lot of the things that come back in search console, they're telling you like your video is out of viewport. Um, there's lots of, um, notices that talk about mobile things. And so the, um. Now, I also spend a lot of time in server logs, which is not where you see a lot of SEOs going. Um, but it was, uh, it's really, um, fascinating.
[00:38:01] And, uh, someone, uh, just wrote me a script that lets me insert my login and, uh, it, it will isolate all the. The records for me and only, you know, which ones are Google's. And before that, like I said, I was a very manual person. So before I was literally like every morning going, okay, I kind of know, you know, what IPs I might be looking for, but it took time to do that because server logs are not prepared in a way that they think people will actually use them.
[00:38:40] You know, they don't easily go into spreadsheets and things like that. So, um, but yeah, uh, if you've, you know, I, um, I have a forensic training course and that's one of the sections there where I'm basically like, we're all going to find out where are our server lags, how do we download them? How do we read them, you know, and what are we looking for?
[00:39:03] So I've, uh, I've kept track of all the. The different Chrome builds on there. So I'm like a little kid with a box of rocks. Yeah. So it's, it's fascinating. And like I say, going back to the mobile first indexing is I do think that it's going to time is going to show us. So, um, it's not like one thing, it's a multitude of things and I think we'll look back and go like, Hey, do you remember when it didn't used to be this way?
[00:39:40] Yeah. Yeah. It says this is when it changed. So we'll know. Uh huh. And can you share some, like some other interesting things you learned, discovered from, uh, from logs? Okay. Thanks. You know, um, yeah, you know, a lot of people are worried, you know, you see it in a different SEO groups, you know, it's like, Oh, you know, I have some 404s.
[00:40:06] Is that going to hurt me? And when you start looking at them, um, sometimes a lot of them, you know, people think they registered a domain and they were the first ones to do it, but it may have had a history before. And Google seems to remember that history. So, it'll come back looking for URLs that you never put on your site.
[00:40:35] Somewhere, somehow, in, um, in their, um, I guess in their records for all of these pages, um, they're trying to find where did that page go. But why do they, uh, keep doing that? I know they, they like to do it for years, right? Yes. Why is it that? Why do you think? Well, I, I think it's like, in some ways it's programmed, uh, F, uh, you know, FOMO, right?
[00:41:07] They, they don't want to miss out on, uh, Yeah, good point. You know? Um, and that's also why I think Google has the struggle it has with, Um, scale with all the data. Um, when I, uh, first started, um, you would look up a keyword and you could literally track back a hundred pages of mm-hmm, results and, um. There was a way to put a, um, an operator on the end of a URL that basically said, um, show me everything for this keyword and start with the last page.
[00:41:54] And so when you would do that, it's, it's, it's not that easy. You can still do it now, but it takes a while. Um, but the, uh, the thing is, is that instead of being a thousand, uh, results for a keyword, they've condensed it to where now you might, uh, you might be lucky to find 300 or 400 visible results in the SERPs.
[00:42:20] And that if you want to see more, um, they'll show you that. But you have to do extra things. So it's clearly at that point that maybe, you know, we have a filtered view through natural SERPs that we didn't have before. Yeah, right, right. So, um, why? Right? Why now? And so it's kind of like, it's clear, I think there's a lot of costs.
[00:42:48] Considerations going in, into all of that. Um, that's what I think Core Web Vitals was. Yeah, yeah, that's what I wanted to say, yeah, exactly. You know, it, it, it, there was a threat involved with it, right? That if you don't optimize for these You know, things that determine speed, um, we may not rank you as well.
[00:43:12] So it scared a lot of people and, um, which of course is like reprehensible. Um, but I guess they didn't want it to get out. Perhaps that it was like, Hey guys, this is way too many resources. We need to trim down. And, you know, so they, they kind of got everybody else to pay for it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 100%.
[00:43:36] And regarding this JavaScript, uh, being turned off, like, um, how do you know that, uh, it has been turned off, like, globally? Maybe it was just turned off for this single website, or a set of websites, or maybe some percentage of websites. Like, how do you, how do you know that? And do you know that? Well, I think it's a fair question, right?
[00:44:00] Because people are so used to thinking that, um, we are more powerful sometimes in this ecosystem. But I haven't seen evidence of that as yet. Um, so it's no secret. Um, I started testing, um, the Google indexing API. Uh, yeah, exclusively, um, starting in September and, um, I'm probably the only person that will say this out loud, um, but it may only be because, um, I just look at it every day.
[00:44:38] Please say, so, um, I have, uh, I have noticed that, um, since December 5th of last year to today, um, that the Indexing bot behavior has changed. Mm hmm. How, how has it changed? Sure. So, um, what used to happen before, and again, it used to be that was the only way to get things indexed was to use the indexing API.
[00:45:12] Um, and that was like the end of 21 into 22. We saw that Nothing was getting through everybody was, you know, indexation goes through phases, you know, and I watch it like the way people who watch, you know, when COVID would hit certain levels, people would complain about, uh, Amazon selling the scented candles.
[00:45:36] They would complain that they couldn't smell them, that these candles had no scent. And so what smart people figured out was what that meant was COVID was on the rise. Because of the sense of smell. So I use a similar thing where I just sort of peruse around in different groups and see what are people talking about.
[00:46:00] And, um, there are periods of time where indexation becomes a topic. And a lot of people think they don't have an indexation problem. Because they went to Search Console, Search Console said it's indexed. That's the only way they know that it's indexed. But, um, if you isolate the URL in your search console performance, you know, isolate the timeframe.
[00:46:29] Don't just let the default three month thing, because that that's, you know, three months across every place in the world on every device. So, you know, it's kind of like, don't read it as chapter and verse when it's not displaying chapter and verse, right? So isolate it, um, pick like, you know, the last 28 days, do that, and then choose your country because most of the time people like in the U.
[00:47:00] S. care about their rankings in the U. S. Right? So, and then look at the device, desktop, mobile, or tablet, and if your page is not getting impressions. Your page is not being served. Hmm. And, and most SEOs like, like you ask like, what did I learn from this testing? Um, and that the indexation system has four subsystems.
[00:47:27] Now, at the time when I first started this, I thought they had three. 'cause they only talked about three, which was Mm-Hmm. all indexing and serving. Mm-Hmm. . And the serving is what everybody thinks. Is indexing, but then when they look at search console and search console says indexed, they think that's the same as surfed and they're different things.
[00:47:54] And then Google added in a 4th called ranking. So we, I think we all assumed that and they were like, Oh, let's fill this in, you know, yes, that is probably, um, that is probably why the serving is there is that they rank it and score it and then they probably filter it. you know, for the most documents. So, um, anyway, getting back to what were we talking about?
[00:48:24] So I don't know. It's so interesting that I also like I know you were asking me like, how do you know your contents index? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, um, so that's how normal people should be able to find it. Um, if you're a tester, I put a fake keyword on every single page that I'm trying to write. Hmm, okay. Because I want to know.
[00:48:50] Um, like even if I, I, let's say I launch the page like that and let's say I, I let it kind of bounce around a little bit and then I sort of see where it levels off and then now I can refine, um, you know, what, what do I need to do now? Right now? I'm a, I'm a whole, uh, user of Quora software. Yeah, I wanted to ask about that as well.
[00:49:16] Yeah, me too. So. I mean, it's, it's very rare, I think, to find a tool that doesn't bake in a philosophy of SEO. Yeah, right? So it's a measurement tool. And of course, I think, um, the road map is a sort of concession to everybody who says, well, well, what do I do with all of this? Right? So, um, but Cora will then let's say I run a Cora on the page that's launched, but not ranking where I want it to be.
[00:49:52] So then I find, you know, well, what, what are the differences, what, what are the measurable differences between my page and what's there? And so at that point, then I will make some change on page changes. And then I'll add a second keyword in there, which I noted with the date. And where do you add that keyword, like in the invisible place or in the visible one?
[00:50:17] Invisible. Okay. You know, um, because then I can see, um, when I relaunch it, if the first keyword brings up the page, but the second keyword doesn't, then I know that Google's not taking my edits. Calculation. So then if I, and so for instance, um, let's say then I can find it and it, and it goes up, you know, then I know, okay, that jump was in response to the changes that I made because, um, again, you know, Google doesn't not want us necessarily, and I understand why, you know, they don't want us to see cause and effect.
[00:51:07] They don't want us to see if you do this, this will go up and they put that in their patents and they say, we're going to delay for that reason. Right? So, um, if we have our own way of telling, then we determine for ourselves that cause and effect. And when I say we don't determine the cause, it's that we know that what we did caused the change.
[00:51:35] And sometimes, you know, it will go down. Like, I always think I love it when it goes down after I make something. Because then there is a chance it will go up, right? Yeah, like, you know, when you pull a bow. You gotta go back before you shoot it. So, um, yeah, so that doesn't worry me. Um, It's certainly not these days.
[00:51:57] I mean, when I got started, yeah, I mean, I think when all of us got started, anything that went down was like, so scary from day to day, like, it was like, Oh, from hour to hour, even like, yeah, right, right. It's what do they call that? Um, uh, You know, there's some like, uh, codependent, right? If I have a good day in Google, I have a good day.
[00:52:23] I'm in a terrible mood. Totally, totally. And there is a question I, I think I would ask you some time ago before I kind of changed a little bit SEO because like, I used to be a very, very white hat person. But I kind of a little bit changed. So my question would be, aren't you afraid of adding text, uh, hidden text, text that's not visible to users?
[00:52:54] Aren't you afraid that you're going to be penalized by Google? Not in the least. Why? Well, first off. It's a very common thing that you look through a lot of sites that are WordPress or whatever. There are numbers of things that are hidden. You know, they, they need to be there, but they're hidden. But it doesn't mean that it's hidden does not necessarily mean bad.
[00:53:21] Because everything I'm doing, I'm trying to enhance the message of the page, right? So I'm not trying to make a page, malicious in any way on that. So if somebody, um, cause you know, a lot of people will say that like, I don't want to put hidden anything on my page. Um, but sometimes it's, uh, you know, the accordion stuff, all that's hidden and it's red.
[00:53:53] I mean,
[00:53:59] People can test that out too. You can put a fake keyword, a, a unique keyword. I'll, I'll change my language around that. Um, put a unique keyword in there and, uh, you know, resubmit it for Google to crawl it. And then you can find that fake keyword. Once, once it's crawled and scored it, re scored it, um, you'll find that fake keyword in there.
[00:54:23] The page will come up. Yeah. I, I think what a lot of it is, is, um, you know, when I started in SEO, um, people had to follow somebody who was, um, what they call a guru. Yeah. Right? . And it comes a certain point, I think, where, uh, and I felt this way about, you know, when I was a business owner, I had a website and a web developer.
[00:54:55] Mm-Hmm. . I didn't wanna always go to the web developer to change my content. And so, you know, WordPress was very freeing in that, in that case. And then, um, I like it with my SEO as well. I, I, I wanna know, I wanna learn, I wanna see. What is the real impact on and I don't want to wait, I don't want to wait for, you know, somebody outside who doesn't know the thing to tell me, um, oh, that was stupid, right?
[00:55:32] Yeah, 100%. And, you know, like for the indexing, a lot of times people would say, I don't have a problem indexing, there is no indexing issue. But they didn't even understand the distinction between new content and existing content that one is a discovery and one is When you update it, it's a refresh. Mm hmm And all of this is found in search console when you go down into the settings and they'll tell you the type of crawls That they're doing.
[00:56:08] Yeah for your site. So all stats report, right? Yes. Yes The crawling report and it used to be in there like you would see all sorts of other things and that's also some of the stuff they're changing now in there because you could even see, um, there was one site that I had access to was a desktop primary site and while I was working on it, they actually converted it to a smartphone.
[00:56:40] Right. And it was shortly after that, that a lot of the changes that I had made on specific pages, they went up crazy. And I was like, okay, I think there's something to this, you know, mobile first, but again, that was like right, right afterwards and everything, but, um, it was, it's fascinating when you start to look at the nitty gritty pieces and.
[00:57:10] a sort of independence for me to test because now I didn't have to rely on somebody else to know if it worked or not, or, or, you know, you can, you can try something and it can not work. That's still a learning experience. Yeah, totally. Totally. So, and, um, yeah, I, it's, it's just really been. Tremendous freedom, I think in that case.
[00:57:41] Now, it also means that you can't talk to a lot of people, um, because they're really vested in those Google developer documents. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. I used to be like that, so I understand it. Yeah, I mean Very well. Yeah. And when I started testing the, uh, API to get things indexed, people were telling me like, No, you can't do that!
[00:58:09] The docs say you have to have either event schema or job schema on there. And I'm like, I got it to work. You're telling me the document says it doesn't. But I got it to work. Why don't you try it? What have you got to lose to try it? What do you know? There's no, there's really no, um, there's nothing about no risk, right?
[00:58:37] It's, it's like, try it, test it. If it works, you learn something. If it, if it's a disagreement with a Google document, what that tells you is that obviously things are different that, you know, when people say like, Oh, it's in the patents, this is how they're doing it. And I'm like, yeah, it's in the patents, but just because somebody says.
[00:59:05] They could do this doesn't mean that they are yeah, you know, the whole thing goes back to like core web vitals, right? Yeah, core vitals are probably the best the best example. Yeah, so Carolyn like wrapping up Can you tell me like? What's the best place to find you to follow you like I invite everyone right now to subscribe to your channel I will link it somewhere.
[00:59:35] But uh, what are other places twitter linkedin? Yeah, um Looking for american way media. That's the name of my agency. Uh huh. Okay And uh, so facebook is good. Um linkedin Uh, Twitter. Yes. Um, uh, usually under, um, more under my name on Twitter. With everything. Um, and then, uh, yeah, I, I comments even on the YouTube channel.
[01:00:07] I, I respond to. So yeah, I noticed. Yeah. I tried to do that, but I always, I never managed to do it like in the way in, in the fast way I would like to, like, I always. I don't know. I keep putting it off and I never managed to do it like in a 24 hours or something. Maybe one day. Well, um, you know, cause I was, I was sort of reporting on 24 hours.
[01:00:34] So like I was in there very frequently, you know, primarily, um, you know, crawl or no crawl on Substack, um, and there's some, uh, uh, public articles on there. Um, it's, it is, it's a paid resource, but, um, there's some information on there, uh, concerning the mobile first indexing, and, um, and that, that's available, um, you can read it, uh, and not become a paid subscriber or anything.
[01:01:07] Uh huh. Okay, cool. Cool. I will link this as well. Yeah. Okay, Caroline. So, it was very nice. Uh, to have you. I hope to have you again in the future. Maybe something very interesting happens and you would, you will like to join again and talk about this in detail. So I am honored to have you and I am pretty sure everyone loved this episode and I learned a ton.
[01:01:33] I think others too. So big thanks. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Yeah. So thanks everyone and see you in the next episode.
[01:01:48]